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身在美国的工程师们还想回国吗,还能回国吗?


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7/19/2019

身在美国的工程师们还想回国吗,还能回国吗?

去年美国《华尔街日报》曾报道称,在美国最引以为豪的科技中心硅谷,正有一大批的来自中国的工程师、科学家和其他技术人员准备回国。要知道此前,硅谷的苹果公司、facebook等世界尖端高科技企业可是成千上万中国技术人员的梦之所想,究竟是什么原因导致在美人才回流中国呢?

去年美国《华尔街日报》曾报道称,在美国最引以为豪的科技中心硅谷,正有一大批的来自中国的工程师、科学家和其他技术人员准备回国。

《彭博商业周刊》也曾发表报道,描述了许多在美国的精英大学接受教育、毕业后留在硅谷的科技公司工作的中国科技人才,正在回到中国工作或者创业。

要知道此前,硅谷的苹果公司、facebook等世界尖端高科技企业可是成千上万中国技术人员的梦之所想,究竟是什么原因导致在美人才回流中国呢?

EDN电子技术设计小编在知乎上发现一个“身在美国的工程师还想回国么?”的话题,或许能从中找到答案。

高赞回答说了什么?

在该话题中,获得最高赞的是以为匿名用户的回答。他首先表示“本人目前已经回国”,再从三个层面分析了这个话题。




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1. 美国和国内各有优势,但对于绝大多数人美国的优势更明显:

对于想在事业上更进一步甚至未来自己创业的,回国确实是更好的选择,对于想安安稳稳搞技术、过高质量中产生活,美国比国内强2-3个档次。

首先说为什么回来,第一点很重要,中国人在美国职场很吃亏普遍,很多中国码农看不上印度人,事实上印度人比中国人更懂政治、更团结、更有表现力,更能融入美国文化,更有语言优势,这是在职场通往更高层的必要的要素,中国码农往往喜欢在技术上鄙视印度人……我觉得这就太狭隘了,这是职场不是技术大赛,在职场的成功方方面面,技术只是其中一环,我个人认为据我普遍的观察,印度佬除了技术水平不如中国人之外,其他各个要素都比中国人更适合美国职场,所以就出现大批印度佬管理层,中国人做中下层的技术员这种情况。

我离开微软的一个导火索就是我的印度上司把他的印度老乡搞上去,我感觉到被挤压了上升空间,我自认为除了语言弱势之外比那个印度佬更有优势,但是印度佬抱团提拔自己人搞政治圈子的问题早已经蔚然成风,中国人如果老老实实做码农,没事带薪编译的时间在知乎吹牛逼,我看知乎的美帝码农大把这样的,这样确实没问题,会比国内滋润的多,但是我确实不是能安下心一心搞技术的人,那一段时间感觉很抑郁,后来在国内大厂的一个师兄提供了一个机会给我,我就这样回国了,目前在某巨头的图形团队做负责人。

总结下来就一点,我感觉被印度佬的政治圈子挤压了上升空间,又不甘心做一线技术员工,就回国了。

结合我最近做回流招聘,大概有30-40%的回国意向码农觉得自己遇到了天花板,我个人认为现在中国人在湾区上升空间比张亚勤、李开复那会更小了,因为空间就那么点,除了一向强势的美帝本土员工,印度员工已经形成气候把持了管理层不小的话语权,留给中国人的空间真的不多了。




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2. 为什么绝大多数美帝码农不愿意回国?

大家都知道微软是中国码农的聚集大户,在这里我能接触到各种各样的国内翻墙而来的码农.

我个人的观察,翻墙出来的码农绝大多数都是小康、中产背景,而且野心也不大,在微软我见过很多干了多年的SDEII,SDEII看上去算是比较入门的职级了,可是即使这个职级在西雅图能活的十分滋润,能住大 house 开跑车,一年有13-18w 刀的收入,这在国内基本上是各种大厂总监(大厂总监虽然收入更高但是考虑到中国的房价、物价水平、无脑加班、社会福利、企业福利我觉得也就跟美帝中级码农差不多幸福指数)才能拥有的生活,在西雅图,只需要干了多年的SDEII就能做到,一天八小时不用加班,员工福利拉满,随时可以请假,能干到老不用担心被35岁优化,所以你说为什么这些人要回去?

所以,只有不急着往上爬,在美帝安安稳稳、滋滋润润干一辈子是非常容易的事情,国内程序员虽然收入比其他职业要高,但是跟美帝的程序员比基本还生活在封建社会,美帝这早是成熟资本主义的水平了.

可以说除了在文化和语言上中国码农有一定隔阂以外,基本上至少在西雅图微软的码农比国内大厂码农的生活幸福指数强两到三个档次,不回国很正常...


3. 在国内工作与国外有什么区别呢?

生活上:

国内有一些优势,首先是语言和文化上,基本上不存在隔阂,这是最大的优势,其次人工服务真是低,在美帝什么事情都要自己上,人工成本居高无比,在国内外卖、搬家、装修、理发这些事情很便宜,物价上个人认为美帝更低一些(同样的东西),有些人认为中国物价更低,我觉得这是错觉,300块的莆田鞋跟1000的耐克都是运动鞋,长得差不多,国内的莆田鞋更低,这说明不了任何问题,要比就要比同样的东西,同样品牌的东西美帝基本上比国内便宜的多,国内的优势就是你可以很方便得用更低价买很多劣质的、仿冒的商品,如果用中国的劣势仿冒东西对比美帝,那可以说中国物价水平低.

再说房价,国内的房价真是奇葩,高的离谱且吐血,在西雅图话100-120w 刀能买到非常好的 house 了,在深圳买同水平的房子要2000w 人民币不止,微软内部的码农在西雅图工作5年左右就能轻松买西雅图的房子了,国内码农工作五年左右会发现攒的钱还没这五年涨的多...我已经无力吐槽,基本上我看我们团队买房子的同学都靠父母出资帮助,我觉得中国的房地产基本上算是家庭税了,一个商品房的最大成本就是地皮,地皮的收入被地方政府纳入口袋,地方政府和房地产商联合哄抬房价,因此每个家庭基本都被房子掏空,这就叫家庭税,儿子越多掏的越多.



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工作上:

国内的公司无论大小还是处于封建社会,这个封建之处在于生产力低下

首先讲讲生产力问题,在微软有非常严格的代码规范、协作流程、软件工程管理的架构,基于以上的大框架,员工可以合理高效得协作,而且产出的软件质量和速度都可以保证,总体而言整个开发进度在一种稳中有快的节奏中很舒服得进行.

国内的生产力就有问题了,我认为国内生产力低下的最重要的有两点原因,第一点就是理念不同,第二点就是管理水平低下.

首先说理念,所有的公司和产品都在求快,为了快可以违背软件工程的基本原则,可以无测试、无紧急预案直接上线,然后就开始无限打补丁,所有的员工和老板都认为错过这个风口、时机一切都晚了,这个理念就是跟美帝那边最大的不同,我个人认为这个理念放在5年前的国内市场是可以理解的,那正是移动互联网红利期,app 只要出来了用户就会蜂拥而至,但是这都2019年了,红利期早没了,还是抱着好几年前的想法,所以17年共享单车大战是 ofo 和摩拜笑到最后了?一个基本判了死刑,一个成了美团的累赘资产,我觉得这个时期已经不是快决定成败的关键了,但是整个圈子的理念还是这个.


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其次是管理水平问题,国内至少大厂的程序员绝大多数都是比较优秀的,技术上没有任何问题,问题就在于国内研发团队的管理人员水平真的参差不齐,当然也可以理解,国内公司发展太快,趁着前几年互联网红利期跟着公司成长爬上来非常多混子们,本身技术能力就不高,做上管理之后疏于技术更是成了 burden,问题是管理能力也没进步,就这么一些人占据了公司的很多管理岗位,这就导致整个研发体系混乱不堪,规范基本上无从谈起,技术上稳定压倒一切(语言打死不升级),导致技术债越积越多,也造成了人力资源的大量内耗.

就是基于以上的问题,我才认为我回国是比较正确的选择,在国内的公司确实有很多潜力可挖,我回国的第一年就梳理了团队的整个研发体系,敲定了代码规范和协作流程规范,减少了很多没必要的会议,绝大多数会议会因为完善的文档和协作流程而没必要存在,同时也尽可能得把一些框架和语言升级到最新版本,以后基本上会稳定跟住业界的 stable 版本,当然有一些实在太老旧的系统技术债太深就没办法升级了,只能等时间慢慢淘汰了.

之后开始建立团队的自动化工具集,基本上解决了之前一些需要手动做的大量重复性工作,然后在此之上进行进一步通用化设计在部门里推广,就因为这一点去年我手下两个同学都晋升的很顺利.

今年已经是回国第三年,在解决了以上温饱和小康的问题之后,我想带领团队再进一步,希望这一年能做出更大的成绩...



    
   
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回国内最主要的还是带团队做出成绩的满足感,与其在西雅图做一辈子滋润的程序员,相比之下这种虽然更累一点的满足感更是我想要的...

也有不想回国的!

有想回国的,当然也有不想回国的,注明为Facebook软工的知乎用户@硅谷IT胖子 就表示:不想,也没必要。

第一个也是最担心最恐惧的是996。身体吃不消,胖子一个(其实体力体质都还好),但长期过敏,所以体力只能发挥出6-7成左右。工作10-12小时几天没问题,时间长了扛不住,各种负面状态就会出现。而且考虑到家庭问题,一个人996,另一个照顾家里和孩子得很累;工作压力不大的环境的话,双码工的配置也问题不大,其实就更舒服了。

第二个是收入问题。国内1M人民币以上就算高薪了应该,听说某些公司能给到2M但很少很少了,但在湾区以及西雅图,朋友中20多万USD的为主,30万以上的也不少。收入问题连带的是买房问题,就不提了,其实哪边压力都挺大的倒是,不过湾区西雅图双马工买房子压力还是不大不需要任何家里支持,单码非大厂可能略难。

第三个是环境问题。其实自然环境我认为两者差不多:国内一线雾霾严重一些,脏乱差,饮食空气水都略坑;但我个人在美国越待过敏越严重(免疫系统越来越敏感),长期过敏损失大量的体力和精力,快把人逼疯,两者算是拉平了。但人文环境湾区西雅图好很多,没国内那么拥挤和聒噪。

第四个是社会经验问题。我喜欢上知乎有一个原因是可以观察国内人的心态和习惯,这是我所不了解的,很多人给我的回复都让我大吃一惊。这不是装X,虽然我生在中国长在中国,但大学毕业后立刻出国学习、生活、工作多年到今天,其实完全没有真正地接触过中国社会、完全没上过班,只接触过学校。比如在美国随便提一个人的职业和专业,我内心中大概都能估计出他(她)的收入、社会地位等,但对国内很不了解,比如副教授能赚多少钱社会地位如何等,甚至同行BAT的工资我都不是很清楚。



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这导致我对国内的社会其实是很陌生和畏惧的。比如国内HR权力很大,我该如何面对和处理?都不是很清楚。我这人属于“不求有功但求无过”的保守性格,不肯随便冒险。有些朋友回国时说好50万,回去了才给27万这种情况不少,我就更怕了。在美国也接触过很多国内外派的人或是直接transfer过来的人,的确觉得思路是不太一样的。

此外,他还提及了性格、饮食及孩子教育问题。但同时,他表示也曾因创业和事业方面的问题想过回国,他认为国内,尤其是行业上升期时,机会的确比美国多百倍。这种混乱虽然有时候很考验人的运气和情商,但的确比美国创业更容易成功。能爬上去那就完全不一样了,无论各个方面恐怕都强于美国。虽然国内发展很快,但毕竟整体上还是有差距,各个方面的差距,海归的经验和眼光有些还是很有用的。

最后他总结表示:我在这些年间,的确也看到一些朋友海归,但他们大部分归海了(又重新回到美国)。只有几个真正喜欢国内气氛的人乐不思蜀。码工因为不会太穷,所以其实引导他们的更多的是自身所向往的生活方式:向往稳定生活的,一般会选择留在美国;向往拼搏、奋进、鲜花掌声的,就算一时留在美国最后也会海归碰运气。

小编曾在一篇报道中看到:在美国做工程师,很快就可以有小富即安的生活。但中国工程师想要打破这种固化的阶级——越来越多的硅谷人相信要想大富、大成功还是得回国。

而这样的“大富”并不是这一代华人工程师凭空的臆想。

硅谷回国创业、加入科技公司担任要职的先例——无论是离职Google 回国创立了出门问问的李志飞,还是从斯坦福大学回到中国打造了小红书的CEO 毛文超,都是仍然滞留硅谷工程师内心渴望成为的样子。

对于这个问题,各位工程师们有什么看法?


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7/19/2019

Why do Indians outperform Chinese in the US jobs market? Better people skills could have a lot to do with it

While the thousands of Chinese graduates looking for work in the US may excel academically, cultural factors could still be holding them back

By MANDY ZUO

Chinese students at a graduation ceremony at Columbia University in New York. Photo: Xinhua

It turned out to be much harder than Ellen Wu had expected, to find a job in Seattle, where her husband works, after obtaining a Master of Business Administration degree in the US.

Having graduated in 2016 from a top 20 business school, which she prefers not to name, she spent a year juggling two internships before being formally hired at the end of last year.

Now a senior marketing manager at a tech start-up, Wu, 38, said she wasn’t the only Chinese in her class that faced difficulties in landing a job.

While a rapidly growing number of Chinese families are sending their children to get what they believe is better education in Western countries, those who stay on to look for work often appear to be much less competitive in the jobs market than they are in the classroom.

While Asians may be at a general disadvantage finding jobs in countries like America, analysts have said that, on the whole, Indians appear to outperform Chinese people in many fields.

Wu said that around 20 per cent of the students in her MBA class were Chinese or Indian, with the latter group being more numerous. “Almost all the Indians had found a job by graduation in May 2016, but only half of the Chinese had at that time,” she added.


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“I think English fluency, networking skills and the ability to negotiate are why we lag behind Indians. This is especially true with MBAs when looking for a job,” she said.

China sent 608,400 people to study abroad in 2017, up by 11 per cent from the previous year and over four times the number 10 years ago, according to the Ministry of Education.

The United States was by far the most popular destination, with some 350,000 Chinese students going there to study last year.

In the past four decades, about 5.2 million Chinese students have gone abroad, of whom around 20 per cent stayed on to look for work, official figures show.

Asians are the largest minority group of professionals and the most likely to be hired, but the least likely to be promoted to managerial or executive positions, according to a study by Ascend, a non-profit Pan-Asian organisation for business professionals in North America.

The group’s analysis was based on a study of the leadership pipeline for San Francisco Bay Area technology companies through publicly available data between 2007 and 2015.

Among the limited technology leadership roles taken by Asians, Indians have stood out, with key executives from leading firms such as Google, Microsoft, Sandisk and Adobe all being Indians, but few Chinese have made it to the top in those companies.

This is partly owing to the arrival of large numbers of Chinese-born people in the US professional sphere being a relatively recent phenomenon, so even the most successful are still working their way up the career ladder.

By contrast the earliest Indian immigrants to the US arrived in the 1960s and then in a second wave between 1980 and 2010, according to Washington-based nonprofit think tank Migration Policy Institute.

They have been “significantly better educated, more likely to be employed in management positions, and have higher household incomes”, the group said in a report last year.


Chinese students are often excellent academic researchers, but their lack of soft skills has become a major obstacle when it comes to competing with Westerners and even Indians in the overseas job market, said Andrew Chen, the chief learning officer of the WholeRen Group, an education consulting firm based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

“Chinese students are not as open as Americans, Europeans or Indians. They usually don’t have local friends and only focus on study. They don’t know how to deal with the locals and how to get internships,” Chen said.

This is mainly because China’s educators focus on academic study but ignore communication skills, teamwork and leadership, he said.

“To be fair, our students have a great learning capability because of this,” he added.

Wu, who worked in an English language environment for nearly 10 years before going to study in the US, the destination for more than half of overseas Chinese students, in 2013, said she was still unsatisfied with her networking skills.

“At the beginning of my studies here I was really shocked. Anybody can interrupt and challenge the professor,” she said. “You know this seldom happens in China.”

She said this was a common problem for East Asian students in the US, but by contrast Indians were much more like the Westerners.

“Those from China, Japan and South Korea never said a word in class,” she said. “It might seem to others they never existed after an entire semester, even if they got A+. But Indians are very active. They know well how to negotiate and how to persuade people,” she said.

Chen also noted that compared with Indians, who are often very practical and job-oriented when choosing universities and majors, Chinese often focus too much on the ranking of the universities they are applying to and think less about their future job prospects.

However, there are some spheres where the focus on purely academic study can help Chinese graduates.

Compared with graduates from business or arts, those who majored in science and technology often can find a satisfying job quickly, said Yuan Yuan, who obtained his doctorate in computer science in the US seven years ago and is now a software engineer at Microsoft.

Taking advantage of the high demand for technology workers, many Chinese students made it to the world’s best tech companies in the US through their intelligence and willingness to take “a boring job that requires one to sit in front of the computer without saying a word”, which Americans often do not like, Yuan said.

However, most Chinese graduates take lower-level positions, while many of the top firms’ CEOs are Indians, Yuan said.

“Those CEOs would be in their fifties now, which means they started their career decades ago. The rise in overseas study for Chinese students only occurred in the past decade, so I think we can only see the true nature of the competition in a few more decades,” he said.

Wang Huiyao, founder of the Centre for China and Globalisation, a Beijing-based think tank, agreed that more time is needed to assess the true nature of the gap between Chinese graduates and their international competitors in the job market, since most of the Chinese who have overseas study experience were born in the 1980s or 1990s.

“It may be true that the Chinese are poorer at management, but they already have had some achievements in the academic field,” he said. “We have good doctors, scientists and engineers.”

Wu, the MBA degree holder, said the biggest thing she learned during her job hunting experience was that it was vital to improve her soft skills.

“For MBAs, this is even more important than your academic performance,” she said. “And even if you major in computer science, you need them if you want to get to higher levels someday.”










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